Talk:Interordinate relations

NB use of interordinate rather than international, since nation is not directly linked with state on Arden, at least in the modern RL sense. --Vince 05:27, 27 January 2012 (GMT)

Some notes for Messenia.

Modern notion of states start to emerge post 16th century
Raison d'état & Westphalian sovereignty is present to the same amount as in RL ("Bodin's definition of sovereignty as the highest, absolute and perpetual power of the republic")
The state is the authority that leads civil society, taking its legitimacy from enlightenment (the ruling class is chosen for its enlightened views, based on wealth and education in practice - "i.e. because the rulers can lead everyone else to whatever objective") = limited number of people engaged in politics, no suffrage
- Enlightenment comes "in theory" from Cairan philosophies, such as hierarchies of people; equal. might say that everyone can become enlightened true hard work (more social mobility), whereas orthodoxy might be more restrictive
- outstanding issue: reconcile liberalism (with its focus on freedom) and respopulous/cairan equal. (with an apparent focus on equality)
"in this conception you serve the ruler(s) because they have particular actual qualities that you recognise which make them better than you, so there's more of an individual element"

Current situation (2013) corresponds to RL early 19th century, with:
- Classical English liberalism ("liberalism without democracy, but with representation") -- respopulous can be the most "advanced" form
- Hegelian approach (would allow Arden's totalitarianism)
- Rousseau-ist absolutism (for the collectivists)

Saved old description of Cairan world

In the Cairan world, the modern conception of the state started to form during the late feudal period (15th and 16th centuries). At its basis, it was made possible by the political changes that followed the Secote occupation. Indeed, the previous system of the Ecclesiarchy was torn apart by the Secote ruling elites, who had little trust in the predominantly urban Sabamanian elites or the Cairan clergy. Feudalism and the intellectual movement of Orange Revivalism led to the gradual emergence of the notion of separate "powers": the spiritual power that took care of the Argan's affairs (and justice), and the temporal power that managed the more traditional affairs ascribed to the city. In effect, this was a revitalisation of the state of affairs that existed in the 1st millennium BCE, before the Cairan clergy had fused with the imperial bureaucracy.

With Orange Revivalism becoming dominant and squashing attempts at reforming an Ecclesiarchy-like system, the notion of the state started to crystallise around the secular rulers and the bureaucracies they controlled. Feudalism had also introduced a structured and complex hierarchy of rulers, with different titles. However, the influence of the Ecclesiarchy remained extent in Catholicism, where post-Orangism thoughts focused on the establishment of a secular emperor ruling over all the Cairans. Overall, although there was an increased division of the Cairan world, they still perceived themselves a greater religious community tied by the clergy and the emperor, instead of a juxtaposition of separate states.

The watershed moment of the foundation of the modern state in the Cairan world is usually ascribed to the crowning of Prince Maxime of Flessandre as King of Dordanie in 1461. For the first time the notion of a sovereign of intermediate rank between the emperor and princes was introduced. Originally a compromise used to elevate Maxime to a higher rank without having to forge an agreement between the clergy and the nobility, and without too much of a backlash from other rulers, the title quickly spread among the most powerful rulers of the Sabamic world.

Kings quickly differentiated themselves from princes by the amount of land they controlled, and the advanced centralisation of those estates. Sovereigns of this rank were the first to yield such large authority, which was previously the domain of emperors only. They also received the acclamation of their parliament, another symbol previously associated with the emperor only.

In the mean time, the Argan's political role had been placed under threat. In Savam, the collapse of the Old Argan of Savam in the late 15th century and its re-foundation on Orangist principles greatly reduced the clergy's political clout. By ending the de facto schism and bankrolling the new argan, the secular sovereign of Dordanie had ensured secular power preeminence.

It should be noted that the dynamic between secular and religious power is not the same in all parts of the Cairan world. While the Sabamic world has the most advanced separation and domination of secular power over the clergy, in Odann the clergy, albeit separate from the secular administration, still exercises strong political influence and remains to this day on an equal footing to secular power.

From the 16th century, catholic ideals became more and more distant as the division of the Cairan world grew. The idea that inside the regnum, the kingdom, the sovereign had ultimate authority and that there was no external superior became the norm, leading to the notions of sovereignty and non-intervention of one state in the internal affairs of another state.

This was further reinforced by the permanent establishment of the Ecumenical Sorority and the recognition of "sovereignty" in religious affairs for each national argans. In the past the Argan has claimed universality. Some Argans overlapped between different states of equal status, as for example the Argan of Savam with the kingdoms of Dordanie and Quènie. While both states could agree to the idea of a hypothetical secular suzerain (see the Imperial Question) and to form a united argan, they both recognised that the domain of the King and Argan of Elland were completely separate from theirs. There was no more claim to an universal political or religious dominion.